Episode Summary
In this episode, I meet with Francesca. A digital nomad lady with founder and community-building experience. She's take us on very cool journey, from founding her own project to leading the EU market for a privacy-focused Web3 project, zkPass. Join us as we discover how her curiosity and commitment have been instrumental in her success in this tech-driven sector.
I like ZK technologies in general, they give us a glimpse of hope for preserving some privacy in the future and zkPass has great potential to become a bridge for private data transfers from web2 to Web3. Francesca will talk about some transformative use cases, like digital IDs and digital residency for travel, and how they may play a significant role in the African Union's ID verification system.
We also touch on the importance of diversity in the tech sector and its ability to tackle complex problems. We both invite you to approach the world of blockchain technology with an open mind and hopefully use-cases we discuss today will help spark your interest.
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Transcript
BFG: 1:11
Hello everyone. Today I'm welcoming Francesca. We've met at ETH Milan with Francesca and she's representing a very interesting company with a very interesting tech, which we all love. zkPass called , so you can probably already see the permissionless stuff without anybody's influence, but I'll let Francesca talk about it, because I don't really know what it is, and we will chat also about how ladies get to crypto these days and how they end up in deep tech projects like ZK Pass. So welcome Francesca.
Francesca (zkPass): 1:56
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me here. My name is Francesca and currently I am EU market lead and regulations here in Europe, based in Italy, for ZK Pass project. I actually just joined the team about two months ago, so it's really at the beginning stage. Congratulations, thank you so much, and it's been really an honor so far to be in part of this project and work with such high level individuals. The team is extremely organized and everyone has a lot of experience to share and committed to really bring value to the space and being able to see a project such as ZK Pass all the way through the end.
BFG: 2:47
So why don't we start with the size of the team? Because you already talked about the team, how great they are. So how many of you on the team actually?
Francesca (zkPass): 2:56
We actually about 20 people working full time and then six part time interns, and our team is all over the world. We are mainly based in Hong Kong, sydney, new York, here in Italy and, yes, so you are basically fully remote right. Yeah, fully remote, like most Web3 projects, and work really around the clock.
BFG: 3:26
So this is probably a great segue to ask how did you get to ZK Pass? I assume you haven't met them in Italy.
Francesca (zkPass): 3:35
No, definitely haven't met in Italy. It was a long journey. I'll give you the short route.
BFG: 3:44
Give us the highlights.
Francesca (zkPass): 3:46
And then, yes, but practically, I started to work in a community building and funded my own project to bring more women into this space, which was called More Women in Crypto. As an inexperienced founder, of course, I made many mistakes and I learned a lot of important lessons, but also had met great people and had good experiences that led me to be even more passionate about this space and wanting to learn more about this innovative technology From. Actually, I was co-hosting a weekly meeting in Tulum, mexico, called the Tulum Crypto Club, and while I was co-hosting, I met a now a mentor and a friend, queena, which is working with Delissium, a Web3 AAA game. She was very impressed with bringing and inspiring more women into the space and found my post in social media, came to the meeting and crashed the meeting actually and got introduced herself which is, again, extremely rare to see such a high-powered woman so young to hold such a position and since then we became friends and she's a mentor of mine and sharing a lot about the importance of growing your confidence, growing your skills and make sure you keep a record also of measuring your progress and your success and your failures and then learning from your failures. And from there I got introduced into the Web3 gaming. I'm not an avid gamer, I'm a big fan of civilization, so I knew some of the old school Web2 gaming.
BFG: 6:02
You are a gamer.
Francesca (zkPass): 6:04
Here and there I disappear for a few days into the computer, but I'm very curious always and I have a background in psychology and social behavior, so I'm enamored to learn more about the human condition and how technology and disruptive technology affects our day-to-day life and what grabs our attention. And I joined a startup project, ubilon, that focused on digital assets so NFTs ownership and utilize those to leverage the. I got noticed right here, practically to gain funds and I don't know how to pause this. Don't worry about it.
BFG: 7:07
Look, you can send me the links afterwards and I'll put them into show notes. We don't have to talk about every detail.
Francesca (zkPass): 7:13
It was a lending solution, so you practically will be able to utilize your NFTs to store it in our kind of vault without transferring ownership through a new EIP Ethereum process, and that will give us the possibility for the gamer to keep playing and provide some sort of funds for them to be able to utilize in the real life. So the whole point was to help gamers to gain more of a remove their stereotype of always being the broke gamer and actually help them to facilitate them leveraging their digital ownership in the gaming for them to provide liquidity.
BFG: 8:18
Okay.
Francesca (zkPass): 8:19
And it was Something interesting.
BFG: 8:20
So what did you do there?
Francesca (zkPass): 8:23
I focused on.
BFG: 8:28
What was your role there?
Francesca (zkPass): 8:29
My role was Okay, so I began right at the start of the project and literally I came in and renamed the startup. So I started with the marketing and the presentation anything from making sure that the name was just able to be transferred across the board and we went through a whole remarketing, rebranding strategy and also created a plan to build a communication and post that allowed the users and our followers to be informed, so educated in the process, and fully transparent. What was our process as a startup and where we were so creating kind of like monthly Twitter spaces that allowed anyone to ask questions and for us to give full reports on what was happening and where we were Talking about the pinpoints and talking about also the highlights and wins and from there, okay so now, how did you get from gaming to ZK-Pax? Right, that's a big jump, but practically I decided to leave the team in February and from there I relocated myself in Europe and when I was here in Europe I went through the basics of you know, relearning and education. I studied from trading to forex trading to blockchain, fundamentals and some basics of zero-knowledge proof. From there I contacted several projects, had, I think, about four or five different interviews with different startups and through also my pool of friends that I connected with and cultivated a relationship throughout the years that learned about my commitment into the space and what I was doing. They connected me to the team at ZK-Pax and I believe I did four meetings with them before having a trial period in the team and I right now here positioned the EU market. I speak three languages. I speak fluently also Spanish and I'm quite knowledgeable about the community Latin American community Also. I really like to work in operations and maximize, optimize the processes and methods, for example, like onboarding new people in our team or onboarding partnerships. So, anything that has to do with identifying which are the patterns of the top qualities, of what kind of partnerships we really focus on engaging with and bringing to our ecosystem, and making sure that this process has a continuity in communication and we are able to pinpoint exactly how we can connect with them. You see there, through tech integration that can be done at test net level or it can be done during mainnet. So we are slowly building and communicating with each other to create a use case that then will be launched at mainnet or, if it's government agencies and connected with the private sectors. So are we helping certain governments to create a use case that helps them create a government ID connected with also private sector for example, insurance companies or even travel, tourism, anything like that and also organizations. So are we giving back to the community, Are we connecting and making sure to stay on top of research opportunities, collaborations and giving our contribution also to what are the values and the principles that really created the decentralized world?
BFG: 13:41
Okay, so I think you've mentioned a lot of things which I'm going to be curious about, but let's rewind back to what exactly is ZK Pass doing for, like normal people explanation for normal people and then I think a lot of things you just mentioned will make more sense.
Francesca (zkPass): 14:05
Practically ZK Pass consider is a bridge, is a bridge from for data for private data, which is actually our large, larger chunk of private data different from public data, and is a bridge from the web to which a lot of people don't understand, where it is just simple like HTTPS websites, right, just regular websites to web. Three meaning two, blockchain, and we are able to help this process almost seem kind of like a train or a highway right, and in the process of we are transferring this data and making sure that this data is verified or proves some sort of like true statement. There is no data leakage and so any sensitive data that is being transferred is secure, kind of in this tunnel Right.
BFG: 15:07
Fair enough, so I assume there are a lot of other projects focusing on data security. What will be the difference between the others and ZK Pass then?
Francesca (zkPass): 15:19
Well, one of the main feature, one of it is. Okay, I'll tell you the first one. The first one, as we already mentioned, is the fact that we are compatible with web two. So we don't need any API and we don't need an issuer right. We can literally connect to any website and be able to transfer that data to utilize, to be verified and brought into the web three world. And the other part is that, through a multi party computation process and a three part in was is a second party transport layer security that we actually redesigned into a three party transport layer security allows it to not only to have a secure communication bar for the prover, which is the user, not to tamper with this data, so it has come like an anti cheating prevention, which is extremely important because we want to make sure that the users is not tampering, touching this data.
BFG: 16:36
I'm the cheating prevention. I like that Nice phrase.
Francesca (zkPass): 16:40
And the other. The other feature that I wanted to mention is the kind of like trans gate, which allows the users and empowers the users, also the prover, to be able to select, to kind of like a ZK template, select which precise information, which private information, wants to send to be verified, and without disclosing their full you know their full sensitive data Very good. And an example is like I want to be approved from to a real estate company that I am able to have an account of at least a half a million dollar. Right and so. But I do have like a million dollar in my account, but I don't want them to know that right. So through this process of verification, through my bank account, I'm able to provide them with a proof that says okay, we bank say that this statement is true, that these users, this person that has an account with us as at least half a million dollar in the bank account, which is the amount that you need to approve them for purchasing a property.
BFG: 18:04
I see Interesting. Okay, so you kind of jumped exactly into my next question, like what are the I think the easiest to understand use cases for normal people and who? What is the project that you are most excited about? Because I assume you guys have projects with different different companies, institutions and basically probably almost everybody kind of needs this.
Francesca (zkPass): 18:34
Absolutely. I actually, you know, I think sometimes there is resistance maybe in our space to collaborate with government agencies, but we really welcome and we really want governments to implement and integrate this technology. You know it's a little bit difficult, you know, in terms of working with our government agencies. We do. The information of the users has to be disclosed, right, so for anti-money laundry laws and regulations and all sorts of things. But we want to minimize as much as possible that from the government agency to the private sector, for example, this sensitive data doesn't get leaked and shared with other possible third parties. So a great use case. I think is kind of like the digital ID there are, you know, kind of controversial, but I think when things are controversial it's super important to study them and learn about them. And you know we have, for example, when you travel with a passport and you go to a country, a lot of countries want you to bring your passport with you at all times, whatever you go, for security purposes, and it's not really secure and safe to bring your passport with you. It's easy, you can lose it and then when you get, you know, stuck inside a country, you have to go to the consulate, issue a new passport and, you know, likely if you're American, but if you're Italian, you might have to stay there for like a month before someone's reply. So certain countries are allowing for this digital residency kind of, so that where, even if I'm a tourist, right, my passport, my identity, has been kind of cleared and so I receive both a Web3 ID but also a physical ID. I have both options, or just utilizing the Web3 ID option Beautiful and through a QR scanning device, can be utilized for me to check in inside hotels, rent a car, for example even if I have an issue with rent a car companies and I need to connect with an insurance because I was into an accident that I'm able to practically share this data with them that I am you know who I say I am and that I hold a certain type of citizenship, and that I am, you know, I have a tourist visa and so on into the country, without giving them other further information that perhaps I don't want them to know.
BFG: 21:42
So is there a country which is already using ZK Pass this way?
Francesca (zkPass): 21:46
We are in the process of working. Actually, probably one of the really great use case that we're working on right now is with MNT, which is a telecommunication company for the African Union, and we are in the process of creating use case that allows the telecommunication company to create an ID that prove certain information about the users, without giving more information, without sharing more sensitive data, and being able to give this basic information for them to be able to open account, with preventing data leakage. And this is done also in collaboration with certain government agencies. That is simply to make sure that also that generated ID that verifies the person's name and location can be utilized also for government and other use cases. So it's really an infrastructure.
BFG: 23:10
It's actually a great location for piloting something like that, because I know that in Africa a lot of things happen in banking but through the phone and most people don't even have cards. Basically, even in a restaurant, they bring you a bank account number, you just send them money and they get it in a second and you can open an account with just your phone. So, yeah, that's pretty cool use case and I can imagine a lot less hassle than dealing with a European agency.
Francesca (zkPass): 23:47
Of course and I mean it just saves so much time as well it does take time for the infrastructure to be implemented, and there is actually people that I learned in terms of statistics are very knowledgeable about how to use even a wallet like Web 3 wallet, because they utilize this for sending money and so on. So it's easier to have interface that allows for this use case to be implemented on a large scale than perhaps in locations like Italy, where we don't still not utilize certain with your kind of resistance to this kind of technology, but we utilize it for joining the like fantasy football team, and so we're able to connect with fantasy football team through a wallet, but we're resistant to still purchasing cryptocurrency or other things online.
BFG: 25:00
That makes sense. Okay, so just for me to imagine the process right. So if you're working with the telco company for example you guys are basically providing the secure layer. Let's call it bridge, as you did secure bridge. So basically, you wrap up the data, make sure that nobody can tamper with them, and then you want, of course, but that gives the information which is needed without disclosing anything else, right, okay?
Francesca (zkPass): 25:33
So imagine it's like a ZK template, right. So we discuss with the telecommunication company and we figured it out where are the minimum data, private data, information that you need for them to provide you, for the users to provide you, to be able to open an account, perfect? So we create kind of this ZK template and we go and fetch that data and we verify it inside this tunnel, highway, right Covered to the telecommunication company, and the user is aware of which kind of data it was selected for the verification.
BFG: 26:25
Got you Okay. Are you guys tied to any specific chain? I could probably look it up.
Francesca (zkPass): 26:37
Well, we are multi-chain. We launched our pre-Half-File testnet on Ethereum and collaborated with Binance as well, but the ideal is that ZK Pass is kind of like a middle layer and it can be utilized on different chains, right?
BFG: 27:00
Probably you know a silly business question, but do you guys have like ideal client? I know you said you would like to work more with governments, but probably not the ideal client, is it?
Francesca (zkPass): 27:11
Ideal client, you'd be surprised. Actually, we're meeting a lot of really stellar people that are really passionate about what we do, and I think that's one of the important aspects of really diving deep into learning what kind of services and why people do what they do. And you know, we haven't had the chance of collaborating with the US, since there is still a lot of different types of abstract organization when it comes to blockchain. But we, you know, I think that the main importance for us is to be able to reach the largest amount of users and do so through a use case that fits our mission and vision, which is ultimately to empower the prove, the users through their private data. So if we are able to provide that service and create the infrastructure and, in the meanwhile, create an ecosystem with our partners to be able to do that, then, you know, and reach the largest amount of people possible, I think we have a richer goal.
BFG: 28:45
Sure. So are there any like direct competitors? Yeah, like you guys are doing.
Francesca (zkPass): 28:52
Sure, one of them. It would be like Polygon ID, for example. And again we bring it back to the fact that ZK Pass works without needing an issuer.
BFG: 29:08
Right, Okay, that makes sense. So there you could say that there is nobody doing exactly the same ZK thing as you are.
Francesca (zkPass): 29:21
Yeah, and the other part, the other aspect that I wanted to touch point is that our focus is to maximize our circuit so that is efficient in terms of speed and cost, and this is really what we, our developing team, has been working really really around the clock on. You know, our proof time is around the two seconds, which is pretty impressive right now in this space, and so we're really not only to offer a secure service, but also to be able to offer an affordable service.
BFG: 30:08
Okay, Well now you said it so affordable, who pays for the service?
Francesca (zkPass): 30:14
Well, usually it depends because that's a good question. You'd be surprised, you know, it's not always government pays for it. But yeah, it really depends. It really depends on who is interested in kind of creating the interface and being able to have that amount of users. You know, of course, if you can, for example, it could even be like a blockchain. Right, we bring in a blockchain and we know that this blockchain will be able to have added 9 million users to their ecosystem just by bringing it into this use case, and how much would that be for them?
BFG: 31:08
Right, how valuable would that be? So, basically, the answer is it's very individual. Yeah, and we still have to figure it out for every use case. Okay, okay, not fair enough. I mean, it's definitely obvious that it's early, so it's completely fair to be figuring it out.
Francesca (zkPass): 31:27
And I think that's probably the beauty about it. Okay, so is the fact that there's so many different puzzles and possibilities. So you do, of course, you need to learn a lot of technical basics to understand how the protocol can be implemented, what kind of use cases can really work. And sometimes, you know, sitting with my, with my, with our tech team to understand exactly when they go into details is quiet a trip, to tell you the truth. And but the point is that also that I want to make and that I learned through the process of entering this space and we're going back to like full circle. So the first questions you asked me is that how a woman or how a person in general that doesn't have a tech background? And there's this space, and I think the number one thing is curiosity and commitment. This is not a kind of like I want to get rich soon type of scheme. You know, being part of this community is how you can bring value and grow yourself in the process, educate yourself in the process. But also, is the yeah, is the the fact that you're solving a problem Right? You're providing a solution, and sometimes the people that are writing the code or there are people that are focused on one specific thing are not able to zoom out and see how this piece of the puzzle can be utilized to solve certain issues Right. So we need types of perspectives to be able to pitch in and see the larger picture.
BFG: 33:15
Absolutely. Yeah, I think just today somebody talked about it on spaces, and yesterday I talked with one of the clients of mine about this that you know I call it diversity of perspectives. So you should always bring the next role you plan on bringing in when the situation gets better. You should always bring them in now, because now is the time when you need to build that base. Then everything will get easier. It's never ideal, and so ZK Pass is quickly becoming my favorite company because they apparently, you know, brought in diverse perspectives. Yeah, is it only you who is non tech on the whole team, or there are other people?
Francesca (zkPass): 34:03
No, no, Well, I mean me specifically on you know, having to catch up and learning all the ins and outs of zero knowledge, proof and the you know, the new updates and everything else. But there are people on the team also women in the team that do work in different departments, that are knowledgeable about technology, very knowledgeable about technology, but have no back tech background and they're just kind of you know, through the process of you know, being in the mix of the project, have learned how it really, how it can be implemented to the different use cases. You know what's needed, what it's not needed, what works, what doesn't work, the difference with other projects and, ultimately, what can make us unique.
BFG: 35:01
Right. Well, you know, I have no doubts that. You know, I think in my mind everybody can learn anything if they really want to. And also, you know, if you spend enough time in any space, you will kind of get hang of it whether you want it or not. So I'm not surprised to buy that. Okay. So what would be the?
Francesca (zkPass): 35:23
I just wanted to mention. You have to get through, because a lot of people don't don't push through the first layer, which is sometimes awkward and it feels uncomfortable, right. So it's like you get a lot of energy but you don't know if you can sustain it, because you constantly feel that you, you know, you don't, you're not fully there. You're sometimes a little bit in and a little bit out, but really depends on you if you're able to make that extra step, and so I think anybody that would like to enter the space is important. Anything you start doing might feel awkward at the beginning, but just keep going and find your niche that allows that stamina to be consistent throughout the time.
BFG: 36:15
Yeah, I would probably say everything you start as a new feels weird and awkward, so no exceptions. I think Sometimes it doesn't have physical consequences, like when you learn sports, but it's always awkward. I would definitely say that. So what would be the best place to go learn more about? You know, zk Pass, if anybody is interested in you know, considering it as a use case for them or basically just being curious about interesting new tech which is connecting two worlds.
Francesca (zkPass): 36:51
Absolutely Well. I do recommend to always learn how to read technical white page and white paper is very important and you know you can definitely find them on our through our website, which is ZKPassorg, and I think this is one of the main awkward steps that you know. Even the most the users that doesn't know anything about technology need to start to kind of understanding these kind of terms and how is being put together and that gives you psychology. Use it. We call it as a schema, as a drawer. Right, we could do this mental drawer. We don't know exactly where the information are supposed to be organized, but we, you know, we create this drawer, we put all the you know kitchen sink inside and we just wait for it to be kind of organized. And that's kind of the first step. So of course, you can go through the website, look all the different type of information, but if you really want to dive deeper into the project and understand the back end, definitely go through the white paper, learn about, you know, the full system. And then, you know, we do from time to time do some Twitter spaces and, yeah, the you know, we don't. We don't do kind of like one to one. Users frequently asked questions at this time, but there is there are also some videos one specific videos demo that we shared on YouTube, and perhaps we'll share more videos as well, on how our projects works.
BFG: 38:42
All right. All right, and I see you guys have a discord, so yeah, we have a discord, probably always always the devs preferred way to jump in and ask questions.
Francesca (zkPass): 38:54
Unfortunately, and I'll tell you, I'll tell you the truth, I'd be fully candid and transparent. I'm not a huge discord person. Some people that are not a discord person we already are kind of like you know, spread across different channels, and we do. I like medium articles. We do have a medium channel as well, and we publish our monthly tech reports as well, which can be very helpful to stay up to date.
BFG: 39:28
Okay, perfect, I will gather all the links we mentioned from you. I will, of course, add, you know, your Twitter and other links which you would like to share to the show notes. Is there anything else? You know how the listeners potentially might be useful to you or to ZK pass, or we just say bye.
Francesca (zkPass): 39:52
Yeah, I just just very quickly wanted to, wanted to give a message of comfort in a way, meaning I would like that. You know a lot of people that perhaps I'm sure that people that will listen to the podcast have some sort of like technical background or you know somewhat are interested and curious in this space. Okay, so you know, I think this is a disruptive technology and a lot of times we don't know steel how to, to incorporate into our life, how to relate to it, and I think the best way is to really learn it. And whenever we find resistant, resistance in understanding something, I think that's really the rabbit hole that we need to search in. And you never know, you know you might find yourself to become completely enamored and curious about things that mean you never thought could be really relatable to you. So I I invite every user to take this industry that is very colorful. I call it the crypto blockchain novella, as, with the eyes of curiosity and almost as as a child, the kind of like starts a new journey and to to see the but always to be, to bring discernment with you, anything you do throughout your journey.
BFG: 41:30
Awesome, that was a great ending. I think this this will. I will use it as a prompt for for this episode's cover art. Great, that was a great message.
Francesca (zkPass): 41:42
Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Links To My Guest
For all of you interested nerds and builders - here's basic info about zkPass;
zkPass | Protocol for Private Data Verification - Backed by Binance Labs, Sequoia, OKx Ventures, SIG and others. It is a privacy-preserving protocol for private data verification. It is built on the foundation of Multi-Party Computation (MPC), Zero-Knowledge Proofs (ZKP), and three-party Transport Layer Security (3P-TLS). zkPass provides TransGate, which enables users to selectively and privately validate their data on any HTTPS website to the web3 world. It can cover various data types such as legal identity, financial records, healthcare information, social interactions, work experience, education and skill certifications, etc. All these types of verifications can be done securely and privately without the need to disclose or upload any sensitive personal data to third parties.
Francesca - Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/thefranceway
zkPass:
Website: https://zkpass.org
Twitter: https://twitter.com/zkPass
Discord: https://discord.gg/zkpass
Medium: https://medium.com/zkPass
Technical Whitepaper 2.0[draft]: https://docsend.com/view/5wdg66beu7m95jf3
And zkPass Demo:
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